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Date:Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:03:50 +0000 (UTC) 
Subject:Re: Poplog Xved Problems -> Methodology ? 
From:Aaron Sloman 
Volume-ID: 


Chris Glur wrote:

> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:36:03 -0500
> ...
 
> Yes, on making an additional instalation from *.tar [I had lost
> the *.tar.gz] on a separate partition, to investigate RCLIB and
> the  SIM_AGENT,  I found that I had to AGAIN hack-around
> before I could get poplog/xved to work - on Mandrake 9.
>
> Again, the [unnecessary IMO] problem was the same as some years
> back when initially installing under RH6.2 [still used]: the C-shell.
> Isn't bash the standard for linux ?!

The only part of the poplog installation that now absolutely
requires the C-shell (csh or tcsh), as far as I know, is the
automatically generated file:

    $popsys/poplink_cmnd

It has been on my agenda for some time to look into changing that.

Unfortunately the code that generates this synthesises the relevant
commands via some rather complicated processes that I have not yet
looked at in depth. It was all written long before linux was a
serious candidate for poplog users.

All the relevant code is in the syscomp subdirectory

    $popsrc/syscomp

in the pop11 files for building the system images used by pglink and
newpop.

If anyone else ever has time to look into how to change it I'd be
happy to check it out, and if appropriate re-package linux poplog
accordingly.

Right now I am swamped with too many other things, including the
imminent launch of the CoSy project
    http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/cosy/

> ...
> While reading:
>  http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/poplog/packages/simagent.html
>
> * I was again reminded that I'm trying to emulate A. Sloman's
> documentation style/format  [if I lived long enough].

I use a collection of Ved commands to generate all my html, latex,
or poplog/ved documentation. (Though Ved still requires me to supply
the content, alas...)

>
> * there seems to be ONE typo near the file end:-
>    suggestions  from  users),  while  every  effort  is  maded  to retain...

Thanks. Running 'aspell' would have drawn my attention to it. I try
to remember to run it after editing every document, but sometimes
forget.

>
> * I'm hoping that RCLIB  and  the  SIM_AGENT can shed some light on
>    'usability': i.e. where only the valid choices are selectable at each
>     state of the user's session, instead of pretending to communicate
>     with 'some one in side the box by "composing" a dialog'.
>     i.e the menu/spread-sheet paradigm vs. the author/poet.

The rc_control_panel mechanism could be used to cover many such
cases.

If you run poplog with the bham installation and do
    uses rclib

then TEACH rc_control_panel gives a (fairly long-winded) tutorial
example.

There are some other examples of its use in
    TEACH rclib_demo.p

and more detailed documentation in
    HELP rc_control_panel

If all options are pre-specified then it may be possible to do what
you want using radio buttons, option buttons, action-buttons,
sliders and dials.

If users also need to type in text you can either make the
rc_text_input mechanism (HELP rc_text_input) check validity on every
key-press, which is messy, or make the user click on an 'accept'
button or some such thing, which will cause all user selections to
be checked.

One panel can launch another which depends on previous selections.
So it is possible to have many routes through a collection of
interactions.


>     Running poplog-ved after months of other intense work, I found
>     AGAIN that I would need to search for my notes to find out how to
>     'zoom' the double window to one.

For people who want it the Ved 'menu' (rcmenu) control panels can
provide such things, though there are so many commands available
that different users will probably want to organise them in
different ways. However a search mechanism would help, which doesn't
yet exist.

You can see what does exist in the bham poplog installation by
typing to Ved:
    ENTER menu

The buttons with dots, e.g. 'Editor(Ved)...' bring up new menus.

The current set of such menus (autoloaded on demand) is in

    $poplocal/local/rcmenu/menus/

in files whose names start with 'menu_'

also browsable here
    http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/poplog/rcmenu/menus/

(not looked at by me since about four years ago!)

> These are IMO the reasons why
>     poplog doesn't move out of 'home base' to general useage.
>     By contrast if you/I want to use a spread-sheet after years of
>     familiarity-run-down, we only have to remember how to start it.

Agreed. The work has to be done. The mechanisms are there. But there
is now no development team, only users who may contribute libraries:
one of the benefits of open source.

>
> * As an admitted reductionist, I wonder why the HCI specialists don't
>    admit that:
>      1. use recognition instead of memory,
>      2. base the system on a small number of orthogonal principles;
>   are proven succesfull methods.

I think you are assuming there's some sort of development team
working with a poor philosophy. There isn't such a team now.

When there was a development team (when poplog was a commercial
product) the requirements you mention drove the development of
the XVed menus, which some people still use.

It was essential for the success of the Clementine data-mining
system, which was originally implemented in poplog, and was very
successful. http://www.spss.com/clementine/

Compared with XVed's menus, the rcmenu package provides a much more
powerful set of (recursive) facilities for developing
recognition-based interfaces (which can invoke arbitrary rclib and
other mechanisms as required, or even launch unix/linux commands).

But providing the mechanism is one thing: designing a good
general-purpose set of structured menus for the majority of users is
another, and needs far more work. The existing package has been used
by students for some years. many switch to typing in commands after
learning how. But some go on driving Ved through menus forever.

Cheers.

Aaron
====
Aaron Sloman, ( http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~axs/ )
JOBS AVAILABLE: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/cosy/
PAPERS: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/cogaff/  (also talks in /talks )
FREE BOOK: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/cogaff/crp/
FREE TOOLS: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/poplog/packages/simagent.html