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Date:Mon Feb 13 09:01:41 1993 
Subject:Re: comp.lang.pop FAQ 
From:Aaron Sloman 
Volume-ID:930213.02 

dnk@aaii.oz.au (David Kinny) writes:

> Date: 9 Feb 93 01:13:22 GMT
> Organization: Australian Artificial Intelligence Institute
>
> Well, thanks to Aaron Sloman, I now have a better idea of what POP is.
> The fact that its only available commercially does put the EDEN
> system in a strange light

In defence of Jocelyn Paine I think I should point out that there
would be nothing to stop a Mac or PC fan doing something similar
with software that ran only on Macs or PCs. Macs and PCs are
commercial products and you would not be able to use the software or
join the competition without paying for the Mac or PC. If Jocelyn
has produced something interesting, and wants to make it widely
available, he can't be criticised if it works only on a platform
that costs money. (Actually very little money for UK academics, but
I agree that it would be nice if the same special rate were
available world wide. As the former "director" of the Poplog
development project I can say that we agonized over wanting to make
it available freely to academics and wanting to be able to pay the
excellent and dedicated programmers whose salaries depended on
Poplog sales. For a while the situation was different because there
was research council support for the development, as is apparently
the case for some of the other free software systems widely
available. But then the funding dried up in the late 80s, and all
attempts to get it re-started have so far failed.).

> To quote from the announcement:
>
> >    ANNOUNCING THE EDEN/POPBEAST AI COMPETITION AND TEACHING KIT
> >
> >
> >Do you want to take part in Oxford University's international AI-in-Eden
> >competition? Do you have a Poplog system?(*) Are you looking for AI
> >teaching materials? If so, read on!
> >
> >We have developed Eden as a Poplog-based AI microworld(**) in which
> >members can experiment with learning and planning, and we are now making
> >it available as part of an international AI competition. Unlike many
> >leading brands of microworld, Eden puts the emphasis on learning, whilst
> >still providing a rewarding environment where the less creative
> >rule-based AI need not feel out of place.
> >
> >(*) Or the willingness to translate some Pop-11 simulation code to your
> >favourite programming language.
>
> Well, translating to something else is probably straightforward if you
> know Pop-11, but it seems that apart from the primer (described as
> "an incomplete draft introduction") the only way to find out about it is
> to purchase the system.
>
> > (**) Hopefully to be accepted as the official ANSI standard microworld.
>
> Pull the other one, Jocelyn.  I think the ideas behind eden are excellent,
> but the decision to base it on a commercial product is ludicrous.  Pop-11
> may be a wonderful language, and Poplog a fabulous implementation of it,
> but it's not freely available.  If you are serious about wanting people
> to use EDEN, you should release a Prolog or common lisp port.  If porting
> is a non-trivial exercise, then you can't expect those unfamiliar with
> pop to do it.  If its trivial, then why hasn't it been done?  I'd hate to
> think that one aim of the competition was to sell more Poplog systems.

I happen to know that there is no way that Jocelyn can benefit
financially from sales of Poplog systems. (Nor can I incidentally,
having left Sussex.) But he is perfectly in order if, as a
satisfied, or even enthusiastic user, he tries to encourage others
to use it. Lots of people recommend their favourite products
(bicycle, disk drive, car, book, spreadsheet package, etc. quite
innocently.)

In fact it would be very nice if, as a result of things like Eden
and this news group someone who has the time and resources were to
produce a free Pop-11 system.

I know that one consequence of this news group is that at least one
person is trying to produce his own, and if he succeeds, I hope he
will be in a position to make it freely available. Unfortunately it
is a non-trivial task.

> > David

Best wishes.
Aaron
---
-- 
Aaron Sloman,
School of Computer Science, The University of Birmingham, B15 2TT, England
EMAIL   A.Sloman@cs.bham.ac.uk  OR A.Sloman@bham.ac.uk
Phone: +44-(0)21-414-3711       Fax:   +44-(0)21-414-4281